This is an example of a dude who like an unwashed chamois probably stuck around too long in the 4's.
Here are his Cat4 results in 2009:
12/38, 12/34, 5/39, 3/27, 3/26, 3/28, 1/11* Nov1, 3/40, 3/25.
After a string of four top 5's, he breaks through with a win at Sunflower Cross on November 1st. This is probably where he should've moved on up and made room in the 4's for the next bagger. To his credit, he often doubled up and did the 3/4's which further showed that he was more than ready to get out of the beginner's class. And it does appear that he CTFU to 3 at the start of 2010. But r5 reserves the right to retroactively call out baggers.
On a 'bagger scale of 1-10, he scores a 6.8. Bonus point for the cool tattoos and not looking like your typical cycling douchebag.
Instant karma: The team he's on puts on a series which awarded a power washer to the Cat 4 series winner. Why would any Cat 4 rider upgrade, at any point during their first season, when stuff like this is out there?
ReplyDelete(I recall the power washer was provided by the Kansas Cycling Association, which simply puts them responsible for providing this sandbagger filling.)
Personally, I don't see any first-year rider as a sandbagger, I'm just putting these thoughts out there.
BUT, if 4 truly WAS a beginner class, and awarded trivial items each week, AND at series end, while the 'higher' classes gave out the mightier swag, there's the motivation to CTFU, and nobody would really complain if a bagger won innertubes or a cycling cap every week.
He's not a first year rider and up until his 11/1 win, he had finished 14 races in 2009 including a bunch of 3/4s where he finished almost exactly where Winkler predicted in his own blog.
ReplyDeleteDefinitely not a beginner. Definitely not a douchebag either.
Good points. Realizing he raced several times the year before changes things a bit, but maybe there was something there, leading him to believe that another season of Cat 4 was necessary? This is, indeed, a grey area.
ReplyDeleteAnd while Winkler's number crunching is a great tool, it, like crossresults itself, does not take into account riders who take part in more than one race at an event - possibly putting themselves into entirely wrong categories (or take into account riders who, having a bad day, pull out before the race finish, so points won't count against their totals - the whole thing is insane once you realized how prevalent these things are). While the numbers reveal sandbaggers, they also show other riders who are listed inexplicably low, leading me to believe they go SS immediately after their own race, or are a junior who then jump into 3/4 or something.
This isn't sandbagging, but I don't know there's a term for it. (There's the anti-sandbagging technique, I guess! Kill in 4 all season, but make sure you jump into Open later, so your numbers aren't too good.)
The second time this rider doubled up in 3/4 as well as 4, he became a bag.
ReplyDeleteHe tried to cat up at the beginning of the season, and they denied his upgrade request.
ReplyDeleteA common thread here is that we need to hold KCA's feet to the fire, or at least KNOW what the CTFU "rule" is, and hold everyone to it.
ReplyDeleteIf that would include this guy, fine. Otherwise, we'll just continue spinning wheels.
RE:
ReplyDelete"And while Winkler's number crunching is a great tool, it, like crossresults itself, does not take into account riders who take part in more than one race at an event - possibly putting themselves into entirely wrong categories (or take into account riders who, having a bad day, pull out before the race finish, so points won't count against their totals - the whole thing is insane once you realized how prevalent these things are). While the numbers reveal sandbaggers, they also show other riders who are listed inexplicably low, leading me to believe they go SS immediately after their own race, or are a junior who then jump into 3/4 or something."
Actually, Crossresults.com does "take into account" racers who ride multiple events in a single day. The question is does it take them into account in the appropriate way.
Every single race is scored by Crossresults, so if you ride the 4s and then masters, you'd get points in both. Based on the quality of the field and your placing, one will probably be lower (better) than the other. So, racing the masters race could pull your total points score down, or racing 4s could pull your total score up. Whether this is appropriate depends on your point of view. If I setup my own system, the lowest (best) race of the day would count, with no penalty for any higher scoring races.
"This isn't sandbagging, but I don't know there's a term for it. (There's the anti-sandbagging technique, I guess! Kill in 4 all season, but make sure you jump into Open later, so your numbers aren't too good.)"
This is not likely to work the way you think. Look at Paul Fancher's page on CrossResults. His best race, from a points perspective, is the Smithville Open race where he placed 11th. His points score is better than any other race, even those races he won.
Of course, the previous discussion is only about "Crossresults Points", not USAC Upgrade Points. The upgrade points objectively state whether a rider must or is eligible to upgrade.
ReplyDeleteThe upgrade points, then, since valid, are the means to identify the "sandbaggers." Whether this is the right method might be in question. (Didn't I see a PSA post that's since gone away, r5?)
ReplyDelete(And crossresults points are pretty cool, because they put most of the Cat 4 women ahead of the Open women in KC, probably because of the numbers issue which makes the women's races not even count.)
i love the photo, very creative.
ReplyDeleteThis dude's cool, and he's an animal. he did 3 races one day at St. Marys. That's a man's man.
But i'm still gonna kick his butt in the 3/4 next year.
I used to watch Nash Bridges for a while. After I realized he was never going to get with that chick I started watching Seinfeld instead. Jerry never got with that chick Elaine either, fyi.
ReplyDeleteNot true. Jerry banged Elaine, but they contiuned to be friends. Please get your facts straight before posting on the forum.
ReplyDeleteI think Elaine remained Master of her Domain longer than Jerry, though, so they stand on equal footing.
ReplyDeleteThe 'bag noted on this post never shuts up. I'm surprised he hasn't typed a million characters about himself
None of you baggers are sponge worthy.
ReplyDeleteKids,
ReplyDeleteA few corrections/comments.
Mr. Nash's 'Team' does not put on a Series.
The Series the above poster refers to is produced by several individual promoters.
The powerwashers were provided by the Sunflower State Games, not the KCA.
For those holding their breath (and upgrade), the first indication what might be behind the door for a Cat. 4 Series winner, was announced just prior to the final event of the Series:
http://www.localcycling.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1427:final-cyclocross-race-on-saturday&catid=25:kc-cycling-news&Itemid=42
As the person in charge of party favors for Series60 2010/2011, I'm endeavoring to procure a pair of Dodge Sprinters, custom wrapped in appopriate team colors, for next year's Cat 4(men's and women's) winner.
I failed to ever watch Nash Bridges.
Your truly,
Mark Thomas
"As the person in charge of party favors for Series60 2010/2011, I'm endeavoring to procure a pair of Dodge Sprinters, custom wrapped in appopriate team colors, for next year's Cat 4(men's and women's) winner. "
ReplyDeleteMark you rock dude! That ranks right up there with Stairway to Heaven.
What is ironic about this whole site is it's dicussion of the Cross. I am not talking about the metal and carbon ones you all try to ride, but the wooden one that the author sees to be hanging himself on as to think he is a righteous child. Your rolling pulpit serves not Him but the pharisee in all of us as indicated by the defense of one's self throughout. Pastor r5 your ministry is really a radical form of love. The pure love of riding a bike. Keep up the fine preaching. Amen, Richard 5akes
ReplyDeleteDecked-out Sprinter vans? The Planet Bike King and Queen who blessed us late in the season already have one.
ReplyDeleteThis was a hell of a lot funner when Jeremy's races were illegal, and you were in/out in two hours (and two races).
ReplyDeleteBecause Everbody Must Win, everything basically sucks anymore.
anon 3:51,
ReplyDeletespoken like a true lover of the past. if the past was sooo great, i tell u what. go back to that past. find some hole in the wall park, poach, dont get permission to use it, and u and the other 20 or so racers can race your 2 races and the other 90 or so of us will continue to race races put on by locke, jeremy, mark and others who have worked so hard to improve KC's cx scene. have fun dude, er' douche!
RE: (And crossresults points are pretty cool, because they put most of the Cat 4 women ahead of the Open women in KC, probably because of the numbers issue which makes the women's races not even count.)
ReplyDeleteOkay, my last post on Crossresults (probably everyone has long since ceased to care about how this works).
Nonetheless, having dug into their system and trying to tweak it to serve my purposes, I discovered what seems to be its primary problems, which are:
It is fairly useless as a tool to compare riders who don't regularly race against each other. With the system's calculation, the points in a particular category will tend to drift lower over time. At some point the lowest (best) cat3 will have a point total that puts him somewhere in the Open field. But because this is merely a mathematical effect of the way the points are calculated, it does not mean that our top Cat3 rider is actually stronger than the people in the Open field who he has "passed" by points total.
This is also how you could end up with oddities like the Cat4 women having lower points totals than the Open Women.
And second, the point gaps between riders do not accurately reflect the actual gap between riders. In a particular race, the point difference between 3rd and 4th place might be 10 points regardless of whether the on-course gap between 3rd and 4th was 1 second or 2 minutes. Until we get timing chips or finishing time, we'll never have an accurate ranking system.
Of course, this is all academic and unnecessary to get out there and race. It just indicates that sometimes I don't have anything better to do than play around with numbers.
Dear Anon,
ReplyDeleteHmmm.....Everybody Must Win? Is that about attitude, i.e. Everybody Wants To Win? Or perhaps referring to the opposite of the approx. 300 riders in the Series60cx for 2009/2010 who failed to win. I didn't crunch the numbers exactly, but 300 is about how many riders won exactly uhhh, nothing.
I'll be happy to include you on the "No Need To Win" list for 2010/2011
"Lord of the manner"
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of the past, I miss when dudes defended themselves, sometimes blowing a fuse or two.
ReplyDeleteCat Diarrhea said...
ReplyDelete"Speaking of the past, I miss when dudes defended themselves, sometimes blowing a fuse or two."
KC Sandbagger blog to JT, how do you read, I say again, how do you read?
Crossresults, say it ain't so!
ReplyDeleteTruth hurts everyone, I guess.
think of Beverly hillbilly's
ReplyDeleteHere's a little story bout' a man named Nash.
Started racin' cross and got his a$$ smashed.
So he started cycling like psychotic fool.. Met Mark Thomas and went to cycling school...
Herman Laird Park that is.. Wednesday night cross clinic.
Well the next thing you know know it's following year.
He was pedaling his bike he was shifting his gears.
Cyclocross he really thought was great.
The upgrade crew said boy you'll have to wait.
more experience they said....more points that is.
The DeStad State race was his last as a four.
The Cat three's he was really ready to explore.
The back of the pack he is racing again.
But you can be guaranteed he'll always grin.
and got his a$$ smashed.
ReplyDeleteNTTIAWWT